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Welcome to Pleasure Central Radio!

Part memoir of a modern Renaissance woman, part career advice, part ‘how to be an amazing lover’ instruction manual... 

Pleasure Central is definitely about sexAND... Pleasure Central is just as much about every other kind of pleasure.

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Jun 7, 2020

Rated R, for sexual content and adult topics
 
Tanuki and Rebecca discuss their work lives, personal lives, how they are learning to self-soothe during a pandemic. We also discuss the merits of "fluffing your estrogen", Heinlein & Pratchett, and developing a moral code for oneself.
 
“And it harm none, do what you will.”

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-Radiant Rebecca

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053 - Run Your Own Race - Happy International Whore's Day! Tanuki & Rebecca - PCR

[00:00:21] Rebecca: [00:00:21] Welcome to Pleasure Central  Radio, the place to rethink the assumptions we don't even realize we are making that keep us from getting what we truly want out of work, life and love. Here is your sneak peek into an authentic pleasure-focused conversation.

[00:00:46] Well, hello Tanuki. It's so good to have you back here on pleasure central radio!

[00:00:51] Tanuki: [00:00:51] It's lovely to be back. And it's so nice that we get to visit like this when we otherwise nobody's leaving their however many square foot fortresses.

[00:01:04] Rebecca: [00:01:04] It is. And it's, it's interesting. Cause you often, I've often finding myself getting more acquainted with somebody's house than I normally would.

[00:01:14] Like, even if I was there at your house, I would feel like I'm absorbing as much of it as I am just watching you [00:01:21] walk around and being like, Oh, I remember that. I remember that. I remember that.

[00:01:25] Tanuki: [00:01:25] Yes.

[00:01:29] I think the last time you were in my house, we were having a rather. Magically delicious times. So,

[00:01:37] Rebecca: [00:01:37] you know,

[00:01:38] Tanuki: [00:01:38] walking through my house again,

[00:01:41] Rebecca: [00:01:41] so many good memories.

[00:01:46] Well, today has been one of those days where I have. Everything happening all at once. And it's kind of the post COVID was not quite postcode, but it feels like the city is starting to open up. And I feel like my days are getting back to normal and I wasn't really prepared for it today. I woke up thinking I was going to have another day where I had hardly anything to do.

[00:02:07] And then I booked a client and I had a podcast. Recording session with you that I had scheduled last night and forgotten to put it on my calendar. How does that happen?

[00:02:21] [00:02:21] Thank you so much for your flexibility. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:02:25] Tanuki: [00:02:25] I have the, because I am in partnership with another adult. I have the delightful luxury of our household is not opening up yet. We're going to wait and see both. I mean originally we were waiting to see how things went as States started to open up. And that's a whole interesting conversation for historians, how the numbers are being represented.

[00:02:54] And now with city after city, huge crowds of justifiably, angry people, not social distancing. Um, yeah. This timeline is weird.

[00:03:14] Rebecca: [00:03:14] Yeah.

[00:03:15] Tanuki: [00:03:15] I saw somebody post about a fabulous discovery [00:03:21] where a researcher had found a cave system that hadn't been opened or. Who knows how long. And they found like 30 new species in there.

[00:03:32] And how exciting that was the first comment below the headline was seal it back up, seal it back up. It's the wrong year.

[00:03:42] Rebecca: [00:03:42] I think I saw you posting that cause I remember seeing it.

[00:03:48] Tanuki: [00:03:48] Yeah. This year. It's interesting

[00:03:52] Rebecca: [00:03:52] business. You know, it's one of those times that's making me really appreciate how flexible and how resilient I am as a person

[00:04:01] Tanuki: [00:04:01] and as an entrepreneur.

[00:04:03] Rebecca: [00:04:03] Okay. Just being able to refocus and pivot and do something different.

[00:04:09] Tanuki: [00:04:09] Excellent.

[00:04:10] Rebecca: [00:04:10] Yeah. Yeah, it's all been easy, but the benefit for me is it seems like it's all going in the direction that I wanted to go anyway, which is [00:04:21] very cool.

[00:04:22] Tanuki: [00:04:22] Congratulations

[00:04:25] Rebecca: [00:04:25] now to be going neener, neener, neener, anybody just, it feels like, I

[00:04:32] Tanuki: [00:04:32] don't know. Well, you know, there are multiple things about it.

[00:04:36] Things like necessity is the mother of invention. And good job, recognizing your flexibility and taking yourself in a good direction. And, and thank you universe that you have the privilege and opportunity to do

[00:04:52] Rebecca: [00:04:52] that. Definitely. So I told you about the documentary that's being filmed about me.

[00:04:59] Tanuki: [00:04:59] Uh huh. I believe I told you about the documentary that's being.

[00:05:06] Rebecca: [00:05:06] Yes you did, but it's evolved since that time.

[00:05:09] Tanuki: [00:05:09] Of course. And I hoped that it would, and never doubted to that. You would take it in new and interesting directions.

[00:05:17] Rebecca: [00:05:17] Well, now, instead of being a documentary about sex work and I happened to be [00:05:21] one of the characters, it's more of a documentary about connection and isolation in the time of COVID from.

[00:05:32] Perspective of a polyamorous woman who just happens to be a sex worker as well.

[00:05:37] Tanuki: [00:05:37] Excellent.

[00:05:41] Super neat and normalizing of each of those things. And I'm sure you're doing all of them with grace and aplomb, so it will be so cool for the rest of the world to get to see that.

[00:05:58] Rebecca: [00:05:58] You have so much faith in me. I really appreciate that.

[00:06:03] Tanuki: [00:06:03] Yes. While you had faith that I could actually speak to a human outside my household today.

[00:06:09] And I was like, I don't know. I keep thinking I'm doing okay. And then I try to talk to someone and I'm like, Oh, I've gotten weird. I should not talk.

[00:06:21] [00:06:21] Rebecca: [00:06:21] We know what the whole world has gotten weird. It's not just you.

[00:06:24] Tanuki: [00:06:24] Yes. That's fair.

[00:06:26] Rebecca: [00:06:26] Yeah, it's been very interesting adjusting, but I'm finding that sitting down and looking at what I actually need and what I don't has been really helpful because realizing that I needed some socializing and I wasn't able to get it.

[00:06:46] Person to person, which is where I normally get all my socializing, being someone that works from home, I would go to the gym then, uh, go out and meet with friends and go out to meet up groups and things like that. So when I realized that was definitely going to be a problem, I started hosting regular groups online.

[00:07:04] So now, yeah, so now I think three days a week I am hosting or co-facilitating some kind of something online with people who I know normally in the real world, And we're just taking ourselves online for a little while. And the cool thing about that is that [00:07:21] other people from the same community who don't live locally or who live in a suburb, that they wouldn't normally be able to make it to a meeting at seven o'clock downtown, then they can join too.

[00:07:31] So I'm finding it to be even more inclusive than normal.

[00:07:35] Tanuki: [00:07:35] Beautiful. That's excellent.

[00:07:40] Rebecca: [00:07:40] Yeah, yeah. Writing down what my needs really are, was very, very helpful. Have you guys done anything like that?

[00:07:48] Tanuki: [00:07:48] Uh, we have not. I have a kiddo at home still. And so trying to navigate the homeschooling, uh, it means that a lot of the parts of my brain that would be given towards writing and. Processing like that are in service to him.

[00:08:14] And so when he goes to his dad's house, I got side and am sort of nonverbal [00:08:21] time to myself. It would probably be good to do some. Some of that. Also some of the volunteer work I do, I'm on the communications team for a large peer mediation group. And so if I am doing adult level writing, it's theirs, not so much mine.

[00:08:48] Rebecca: [00:08:48] Wow.

[00:08:50] Tanuki: [00:08:50] Yeah,

[00:08:51] Rebecca: [00:08:51] damn. That is a whole lot of caring for other people.

[00:08:54] Tanuki: [00:08:54] It really is. Yes. Which is something I have chosen fairly powerfully most of my life. And I, at this point have found so many outlets for it that it is also healthy for me to manage them mindfully and not just get caught up in it. [00:09:21] I remember years ago when I, I must have been in about junior high, I was running a, probably that one was just a mile, but I would do mile and 5k, foot races and stuff.

[00:09:33] And fairly often I would find a littler kid on the route who was lost or a little freaked out or losing their wind. And so I'd say, Hey, do you want to run with me? And I would hold their hand and run with them. And I remember after one race, my mom just yelling at me like what she said, you could have had a good time, this race you were really on.

[00:10:00] And then you stopped to help that kid. Why didn't you just run your own race? I was like, uh, and I remember thinking at the time that that was really weird advice, but I didn't have any rebuttal for it. And now I'm like, yeah, you know what I did? I ran my own race. I didn't run [00:10:21] your race.

[00:10:25] Yeah.

[00:10:27] Rebecca: [00:10:27] Yeah. That's a good sign. You've got them straight.

[00:10:32] Tanuki: [00:10:32] Yeah. My mother incidentally is a fabulous human being and I'm sure if I had that conversation with her now, she would be horrified that she had ever done such a thing, but. Yes.

[00:10:45] Rebecca: [00:10:45] But luckily we grew in change.

[00:10:48] Tanuki: [00:10:48] Indeed. My older daughter has said to me that my kids are 10 years apart and some years ago, my older daughter said to me, mama, you would have yelled at me for that.

[00:11:03] And you just explained it to him. So calmly and I looked at her and I was like, Mmm. Yeah, sorry about that. Did you not want me to learn and grow and change and become a better parent learning from my own mistakes? And she was like, fine, [00:11:21] that's a good point. And stormed off.

[00:11:26] If

[00:11:26] we are lucky, we get to be always learning.

[00:11:29] Rebecca: [00:11:29] And it sounds like you have a very open family to be able to learn with. Yeah.

[00:11:36] Tanuki: [00:11:36] Yes, we do every once in a while I have a little fantasy in which I'm a strict disciplinarian and my children, my God listened to me because, you know, they're lightly afraid of me or whatever.

[00:11:55] Yeah. That is not the household. We have an awful lot of asking. Why, why, why.

[00:12:09] Yeah. I realized a couple of weeks ago when I injured my back, that I had not paused or taken a day off at all [00:12:21] in months. Cause there's house projects to do and there's kids to teach. And then I got to do the laundry and it, my partner is working from home. So we've suddenly dropped into these very logical.

[00:12:35] And useful fucking stereotypical gender roles.

[00:12:43] So I hadn't stopped. And now I'm having to spend a couple of hours a day on my heating pad on the couch, watching movies and knitting. I'm like, Oh, This is awesome.

[00:13:00] Rebecca: [00:13:00] Somebody

[00:13:00] Tanuki: [00:13:00] bring me ice cream,

[00:13:03] Rebecca: [00:13:03] the enforced rest. I can understand that.

[00:13:06] Tanuki: [00:13:06] Yeah.

[00:13:10] Rebecca: [00:13:10] That's really lovely that you're recognizing the benefit of pausing and stopping. And did you say crochet or knitting?

[00:13:18] Tanuki: [00:13:18] Um, this particular project. It is knitting, but [00:13:21] I also crochet.

[00:13:23] Rebecca: [00:13:23] I have never learned how to knit. I know how to crochet a line and that's it. But I've heard that doing something like that with their hands, whether it's crocheting, knitting, slowly washing the dishes is a great thing for fluffing your estrogen levels

[00:13:41] Tanuki: [00:13:41] for saying,

[00:13:43] Rebecca: [00:13:43] yeah,

[00:13:45] Tanuki: [00:13:45] I hadn't heard that one.

[00:13:47] I'm gonna have to go read all about it.

[00:13:50] Rebecca: [00:13:50] Yeah. I think I got that out of a book called the female brain.

[00:13:54] Tanuki: [00:13:54] Hmm.

[00:13:56] Rebecca: [00:13:56] Very interesting. My doctor,

[00:13:59] Tanuki: [00:13:59] I find it helps me a lot with a self soothing because I am by default, always working, always doing, always busy. If I have to sit still for any length of time, I get a little anxious, but if I have some handwork.

[00:14:20] Yeah, [00:14:21] I'm still doing

[00:14:22] Rebecca: [00:14:22] something. Yes.

[00:14:24] Tanuki: [00:14:24] Must multitask.

[00:14:27] Rebecca: [00:14:27] Maybe this is the reason why those cross stitch pillows and things were so popular for

[00:14:36] Tanuki: [00:14:36] years.

[00:14:37] Rebecca: [00:14:37] Yeah.

[00:14:40] Tanuki: [00:14:40] Some years ago I was sitting in a little side street in Italy as I went on a. Lovely tour of Europe with a client for a month. And he had gone to find our Airbnb and that had turned into a delightful side quest, which I got to know nothing about until after.

[00:15:02] Um, and I was sitting there knitting and these two little Italian grandmas came up and I said, Oh, Bella, Bella. And they start talking to me in Italian. I said, Oh, sorry, English. And they shook their heads sadly. And you could, [00:15:21] their hands were like darting out and going back, they were trying to be polite, but they very much wanted to touch.

[00:15:26] And so I held it out to them and they fingered it and touched it and looked at me and sort of confused and then looked at what I was doing again and muttered Bella, Bella, a couple more times and wandered off. And I was like, Aw, that was nice. I think they were surprised that a young. You know, I'm not that young, but a younger than grandma age person was knitting and fairly elaborate.

[00:15:51] Beaded lace is what I happen to be knitting at the time. But

[00:15:54] Rebecca: [00:15:54] Holy cow, well, if it ever happens again, you can tell this cute old Italian grandmothers I'm fluffing my estrogen.

[00:16:03] Tanuki: [00:16:03] Exactly.

[00:16:06] Rebecca: [00:16:06] It makes me a nicer person.

[00:16:10] Tanuki: [00:16:10] Yeah. And now I wonder if the self soothing affects, like how much of that is just maybe an estrogen doubt.

[00:16:22] [00:16:21] Rebecca: [00:16:22] It is helpful to think of it as self soothing,

[00:16:24] Tanuki: [00:16:24] isn't it? Yeah. I will sometimes do it at, did it. I used to do it at gatherings of people because. Sometimes at the beginning of the event, especially if one is not drinking, it takes a little while for people to start chatting and it's a little bit awkward.

[00:16:48] And if I'm sitting in a prominent place knitting, then I am busy. I'm not just sitting there looking around awkwardly and still approachable. And if someone comes and talks to me, I can just hold the work. I don't lose my place. Doesn't fall apart. So, yeah, and if I want to stop it just wads up and goes in a bag and I can live back to being social.

[00:17:14] Rebecca: [00:17:14] That is a pretty brilliant social hack. You could learn how to knit

[00:17:22] [00:17:21] Tanuki: [00:17:22] crochet works too.

[00:17:25] Rebecca: [00:17:25] I was going to save for myself soothing. My favorite way is to read Terry Pratchett

[00:17:30] Tanuki: [00:17:30] books. In this

[00:17:32] Rebecca: [00:17:32] world books, any of his young adult books, because it's reliably funny, reliably, interesting and reliably thought provoking.

[00:17:41] And those three things I can just get sucked into a book, even though I've read all of his books more than once. It doesn't matter. There's enough of them that I can always find one that I haven't read in a while. So I can't necessarily remember the whole plot.

[00:17:59] Tanuki: [00:17:59] I do that with, um, hind Highland. But

[00:18:03] Rebecca: [00:18:03] you know, for me, I've only ever read one or two Highland.

[00:18:07] Tanuki: [00:18:07] Interesting.

[00:18:08] Rebecca: [00:18:08] Yeah. Stranger in a strange land. Of course.

[00:18:10] Tanuki: [00:18:10] Good. And

[00:18:12] Rebecca: [00:18:12] I think I read the one about Friday, my girl Friday, or

[00:18:16] Tanuki: [00:18:16] just Friday.

[00:18:17] Rebecca: [00:18:17] Just ready.

[00:18:18] Tanuki: [00:18:18] Yup. Yeah, that's another good one. [00:18:21] There's a cat in Friday who alas does not meet a happy end, but.

[00:18:27] His name is mr. Underfoot, which I've always thought was a great name for a cat.

[00:18:32] Rebecca: [00:18:32] I was like great foreshadowing too.

[00:18:35] Tanuki: [00:18:35] Yeah,

[00:18:36] Rebecca: [00:18:36] unfortunately.

[00:18:37] Tanuki: [00:18:37] Uh, well, no, maybe he went on to another great life that occasionally happens to Heinlein cats as well. You might enjoy to sail beyond the sunset, which is the first one I ever read of Heinlein's.

[00:18:55] To Sail Beyond the Sunset - Synopsis [00:18:55] Rebecca: [00:18:55] Hm, brief synopsis,

[00:19:00] Tanuki: [00:19:00] um, young woman growing up in the late 18 hundreds who happens to be a very free thinker. And at one point, her father who has the country doctor sets her down and says, my daughter, I love you immensely. [00:19:21] And you are an amoral wretch. Come up with a personal code or you're going to come to a bad end.

[00:19:29] Rebecca: [00:19:29] Oh my goodness.

[00:19:31] Tanuki: [00:19:31] And she writes her own 10 commandments and then ends up writing the 11th commandment as well. And the 11th commandment is don't get caught.

[00:19:44] Rebecca: [00:19:44] Okay. I think

[00:19:46] Tanuki: [00:19:46] yes. At the time she was growing up, getting caught, especially for a woman, you know? We like to think it's not so much anymore, but it could be life or death.

[00:19:59] And because she was quote amoral. Yeah, sure. I also quite like sex.

[00:20:06] Rebecca: [00:20:06] So those things seem to go hand in hand and most bright perspectives.

[00:20:12] Tanuki: [00:20:12] So learning how to. Exercise her likes and dislikes and exist in the [00:20:21] world and still go to church on Sunday and hold her head up high and be very happy person leads for a very interesting book.

[00:20:29] And you know, it's Heinlein. So of course there's time travel and looping. And of course, interesting.

[00:20:39] Moral Code [00:20:39] Rebecca: [00:20:39] I'm glad that you brought that up, that personal code because. It reminds me of something. I know I've heard you say it many, many times, and it's something I think I adopted early on in my poly journey and it turned on do what you will.

[00:20:54] Tanuki: [00:20:54] Right. Which is one of my main commandments to my work theme song has a line in it.

[00:21:07] This is one of the problems with my COVID brain is. Vocabulary and references like this, just slip past my fingers,

[00:21:20] Rebecca: [00:21:20] exercise [00:21:21] those parts of your brain. So

[00:21:22] Tanuki: [00:21:22] yeah. Oh, if my life is mine, what shouldn't I do? The singer of the song is living somewhat dangerously and sort of fast, but yeah. Yes. And my life is mine.

[00:21:36] What shouldn't I do. It's an interesting thought process, waking up from a history in which humans had even codified quite a strong presumption of entitlement to each other, up to, and including you are my property. It is interesting. And I'm so glad to live in a point in time in which we say, no, you are not entitled to other human beings.

[00:22:13] You need to ask consent in all things. And then running that thought experiment against our [00:22:21] very flexible minds and seeing what we come up with.

[00:22:28] Rebecca: [00:22:28] Another thing that I've heard from you that I liked a lot. You must love in such a way that the one you love feels free.

[00:22:37] Tanuki: [00:22:37] Yeah. Is that tick? Not hun.

[00:22:41] Rebecca: [00:22:41] I think it is.

[00:22:42] Tanuki: [00:22:42] Yeah.

[00:22:43] Rebecca: [00:22:43] I think that's what during the little signature says anyway.

[00:22:47] Tanuki: [00:22:47] Yes. That's a very good caveat. I don't think I would have used it as my email SIG without confirming the quote, but yes, and beautifully.

[00:22:58] The people who become my clients, that SIG is something that they quote very often in our first email conversation. They're like, Oh, your SIG is so right. I believe that too. And I'm like, great. We are both in the right place, then

[00:23:19] Dog Whistles [00:23:19] Rebecca: [00:23:19] we're a good match.

[00:23:20] Tanuki: [00:23:20] We'll [00:23:21] come.

[00:23:23] Rebecca: [00:23:23] Yeah. I've learned to adding things into my ads and on my website that are sort of flags of my personal opinions and my beliefs, and then the people that show up and that comment on them.

[00:23:38] Those are the people that I didn't have the best connections and the best relationships with,

[00:23:42] Tanuki: [00:23:42] you know, what we're describing, what dog whistles. Well, that term gets used only pejoratively in the news and stuff. Oh, this politician said a word that's a dog whistle to their followers. And it's generally something that codes for a negative or anger inducing thing.

[00:24:03] We're inserting quotes that will get the attention of the right people and just fly right over the heads of the people that they're not really intended for. And so the people whose ears perk up when they hear you must [00:24:21] love in such a way that the person you love feels free. The ones who respond eagerly to that and come running.

[00:24:27] Yay.

[00:24:30] Rebecca: [00:24:30] Definitely. Yay. Yeah. Yeah. I remember once making a joke in the middle of sex. In fact, I think it was the middle of a threesome and I made a very obscure reference to something out of restaurant at the end of the universe. And it was, it was an Addition joke. They had to add up something to get the punchline.

[00:24:52] And of course it added up to 42. I don't remember what the whole joke was. I wish I could, but I do remember this immense amount of satisfaction when the people that I was with will looked at me and laughed out loud. I'm like, yes, these are my people.

[00:25:07] Tanuki: [00:25:07] Yes. Awesome.

[00:25:09] Rebecca: [00:25:09] Yeah. How interesting that we started talking about a moral code and developing a moral code for yourself.

[00:25:18] Women, Sex and Sexual Shame [00:25:18] I've been thinking about that a lot recently. [00:25:21] And I'm facilitating a group of women right now who are learning about sex and about men. And one of the things that I've noticed is that I forget how much shame there is out there around women and sex. And so when I hear it, occasionally it makes me do a double-take and I'm like, wait, Oh, right?

[00:25:45] Yeah, that, that used to be a thing for me, but it's not now

[00:25:50] Tanuki: [00:25:50] what kinds of things did I say?

[00:25:53] Rebecca: [00:25:53] Well, I'm not going to say anything that the women have been saying for their privacy, but I am going to notice that a lot of it that has been coming up for me has to do with shame. And is there ever a good time for shame?

[00:26:08] Or not. And I've been looking into this very seriously because I'm very curious. And most of the people that I've talked to when we define shame as [00:26:21] feeling bad about who you are and guilt feeling bad about something that you've done, most people say there's never a time for shame, but. There are two men who I respect quite a lot, who haven't been explaining to me that there are times when society needs to use shame and say, Hey, look, this is not okay.

[00:26:40] Like in the case of racism, shaming, people that are acting and being racist is apparently a good way of telling them it's not acceptable.

[00:26:52] Tanuki: [00:26:52] Oh, my goodness. There's so many threads. I want to follow in this part of the conference.

[00:26:56] Rebecca: [00:26:56] Good. I was hoping you say that.

[00:27:00] Tanuki: [00:27:00] Um, in probably November, December, 2016, a lot of my friends were very angry and exploring the concept about does anger ever serve as anger ever.

[00:27:17] Anger as a Flagging Fuction [00:27:17] And. A lot of people were saying, no, we [00:27:21] need to get past our anger. We need to not be angry. It's not effective, et cetera, et cetera. And one friend said, you know what? I just heard a good use for anger. It's a flagging function. When you feel yourself, get angry, notice it. Once you have noticed it, you can let the anger go because it has done what it needed to do.

[00:27:46] It's gotten your attention. Now look at why never look at what it was flagging and what it meant because you get angry when something that is sacred is in danger. You need to pay attention. You need to figure out how to deal with that. And it's occurring to me that shame might be the same sort of flagging function.

[00:28:13] Um, Such that if you find yourself feeling bad about something [00:28:21] you have done, notice, pause, let the shame go as soon as possible. Oh. And address what it flagged. But if you claim to the shame, are you cling to the anger? You're basically just running around the field, waving a flag and it's not actually doing anything.

[00:28:43] Except flapping the flag. Oh, yay. Like flapping you go. Um,

[00:28:53] okay. I see how that could be effective in society, but I think society as a macrocosm of the microcosm of any human interactions in which shaming, each other is less effective than some other. Where we could be if you shame your children. Yeah. It's probably fairly effective in the [00:29:21] short term, it changing their behavior.

[00:29:22] But as soon as they are out of your sight, they're kind of likely to do whatever it is because you haven't explained why it's taboo. You've just said, shame on you. Don't do that. And I think the same probably goes for society. If we have shamed each other about racism for many years now. And as soon as we get into a social structure in which the leadership is saying racism is okay, those people start saying the horrible things again, they've never actually been taught.

[00:30:05] And we can argue back and forth that they can perfectly well learn all of this stuff. But if they've only been shamed into not saying this stuff out loud, it's better than saying it out loud, but it's not as good as understanding why it's poison.

[00:30:21] [00:30:21] Rebecca: [00:30:21] Right.

[00:30:25] Well, I gotta admit, I'm pretty happy to hear you say this. Cause I have been thinking the same thing that there's so many better ways of teaching people than shame and okay. I can see that maybe there is an element of it somewhere somehow, but it's gotta be done so carefully. And for me, I think the key that I've come to at the moment, this is subject to change is, and it none do what you will have.

[00:30:52] I harmed somebody.

[00:30:53] Tanuki: [00:30:53] Yeah.

[00:30:54] Rebecca: [00:30:54] And if I haven't, then there's no reason for shame.

[00:31:03]

[00:31:03]

[00:31:03] Tanuki: [00:31:03] Yeah, me too. The, uh, peer mediation group that I volunteer with in the last few years has consciously decided to become a culture of feedback. So if we see each other [00:31:21] doing stuff that is suboptimal. We have trained on how to give and how to receive feedback, because the assumption is that you want this data about how, what you did was not good because you want to do good.

[00:31:40] And that's really an amazing thing to get to spend time in. We are far from perfect at it,

[00:31:48] Rebecca: [00:31:48] of course.

[00:31:50] Tanuki: [00:31:50] And. Because that is the consciously chosen way that we want to be. We get to practice together. That's really fabulous. Also to your, um, shame changing society point science is on our side. Because the harder and the louder and the more aggressively you try to change someone's mind.

[00:32:19] And I think shame probably falls [00:32:21] into those categories. The harder they dig their heels in, it doesn't change their mind. Whereas if you can say to the person, I think maybe shock might be an effective initial reaction. If someone says something racist to you. Or near you, you can say, Oh, wow, honey, let's pause.

[00:32:49] And let's talk about that because that just really surprised me. And then listen to what they have to say shutting up right. There is super powerful because asking someone to explain their shitty behavior

[00:33:05] can often be really hard, but that way you're not just shutting them down.

[00:33:11] Rebecca: [00:33:11] You're a bad person. You shouldn't be doing that. Right.

[00:33:14] Tanuki: [00:33:14] How dare you, that's wrong. All right. They'll just go back to their bubble and say it [00:33:21] to people who didn't react that way. Right. But if you let them stay sharing your bubble and say, Hey, let's talk about this because that landed really off for me.

[00:33:32] What did you mean? Like maybe they didn't mean anything bad.

[00:33:40] Tanuki's story - dinner table as a teenager and calling some group "Dildos" [00:33:40] I remember dinner, friends of the family. I was in junior high. I was describing how people would come to the beach by our house and steal big bags of clams, which was bad for the beach and stuff. And I was thinking that those clam Steelers were not very smart people. But I want it to sound, you know, we're at a dinner party with adults.

[00:34:06] I didn't want to say they were dumb or dummy is they're dodos, but I wanted to convey that general meaning. So I called them dildos and the whole [00:34:21] table, all the adults

[00:34:22] Rebecca: [00:34:22] went and they looked at me

[00:34:26] Tanuki: [00:34:26] and they looked at each other and I knew I had done something wrong. But I didn't know what it was. And then conversation went on in a way we went, the subject got changed and later on, I asked my mom, I was like, mom, what's a dildo.

[00:34:47] You said it's a fake penis. I'm like,

[00:34:53] why is there a word for fake penis? Why wouldn't you just call it a fake? Yeah. All right. So, yes, I was baffled as to why there was a fake word for penis because she didn't explain any more than that. Like, there was no use case for these fake penises that apparently people were making.

[00:35:17] Rebecca: [00:35:17] And I

[00:35:17] Tanuki: [00:35:17] remember sort of picturing and wondering to myself, [00:35:21] like paper,

[00:35:27] Rebecca: [00:35:27] how old were you again?

[00:35:29] Tanuki: [00:35:29] Uh,

[00:35:32] 12 or 13. Wow.

[00:35:36] Rebecca: [00:35:36] Yeah. Well, you definitely shocked the table. It sounds like.

[00:35:41] Tanuki: [00:35:41] Yes, I did.

[00:35:43] Rebecca: [00:35:43] And hope that they will remember the ecological effect of removing clams from the beat.

[00:35:52] Tanuki: [00:35:52] Uh huh.

[00:35:56] Rebecca squirting squirrels to save their lives [00:35:56] Rebecca: [00:35:56] Well, I have a story kind of like that. I grew up at the grand Canyon, national park and hiking and living there and learning all about the native animals and plants.

[00:36:06] One of the things that you learn as a local, is it a lot of the native fauna end up eating human food and, or garbage that's connected to human food. And there was a display in front of the grocery [00:36:21] store that had. Okay. Two pounds of plastic that had been recovered out of the stomach of a deer. After they had died.

[00:36:31] And when we would be hiking with our family, there would be people feeding the squirrels along the trail and having to figure out, you know, how can we be a good example without yelling at these people? And I finally came up with what I think was the best way I would take, I would have a water bottle specifically for this, but like a squirt.

[00:36:49] Tip, you know, the

[00:36:50] Tanuki: [00:36:50] kind of just open up

[00:36:52] Rebecca: [00:36:52] and I would often be carrying that in my hand. And when I would see squirrels coming up trying to get food or people feeding the squirrels, I would squirt the squirrel. Then I would have a moment to be like, that's going to kill them. They can't eat that here. Better to just take a picture and don't feed it.

[00:37:11] Right. So it was funny cause it doesn't hurt the squirrel. It surprises the person. They get a moment to be educated. And I don't know, [00:37:21] hopefully I saved a lot of squirrels lifestyle.

[00:37:23] Tanuki: [00:37:23] Did anyone yell at you for it?

[00:37:26] Rebecca: [00:37:26] Only once, once over of a very, probably four or five years that I was doing it. And once I took the time to explain why.

[00:37:34] Then she was a little bit less red faced, but I think she was just protective of her kids. They're trying to feed the squirrel. And when I explained how easily they carry rabies and how much they bite and chew

[00:37:49] you're from the city, you don't necessarily know those kinds of things, right. Animals look fluffy and like you can pet them. So when they're wild, that's not such a good idea.

[00:38:05] Tanuki: [00:38:05] Years ago when I was going to university of Washington, I was sitting on a bench eating my lunch one day and reading a book. And this cute couple was walking slowly of the path and they were holding hands and chatting and looking at the beautiful [00:38:21] trees and flowers and a squirrel came charging out of the bushes, ran up the girl's leg, grabbed her hands to see if there was anything in it.

[00:38:31] Release her hand ran back her leg and down into the bushes. And then she started screaming and then her partner looked at her, the squirrel completely

[00:38:49] Rebecca: [00:38:49] screaming as she's trying to describe. And it came out and I grabbed my hand

[00:38:53] Tanuki: [00:38:53] and he has the look on his face, changed from legitimate concern and, Oh my God, are we going to battle stations? Too. Oh my God. My girlfriend is insane.

[00:39:09] I could have helped. And I didn't.

[00:39:15] Rebecca: [00:39:15] Did you just enjoy it?

[00:39:16] Tanuki: [00:39:16] Yeah. I just sat there. I didn't say anything. They ended up arguing by the time they walked [00:39:21] past.

[00:39:24] Rebecca: [00:39:24] That's funny. Yeah. I've actually had squirrel. Kind of do the same thing. There was a giant, um, pretzels that we used to have at the Canyon on the rim and in place, everyone there always had food. Cause it was right in front of the ice cream shop, pretzels, food, everything. So the squirrels, there were used to being very well fed.

[00:39:45] And that was, I think, where I got. Into the habit of squirting them with a water bottle, because when came up, took this giant pretzel out of my hand, off of my lap and then to come up with it, like, okay, that's too familiar with humans. I'm going to do my part and teach this girl a little bit of negative reinforcement.

[00:40:07] I would never squirt a human like that, but a squirrel, a little different

[00:40:13] Tanuki: [00:40:13] as long, never say never.

[00:40:15] Rebecca: [00:40:15] Well, okay. I'm very unlikely to screw it a human.

[00:40:23] [00:40:21] Tanuki: [00:40:23] Now I'm thinking of all the scenarios where that would be really, really

[00:40:26] Rebecca: [00:40:26] useful putting a squirt bottle

[00:40:29] Tanuki: [00:40:29] for the humans

[00:40:34] Rebecca: [00:40:34] though. There are other ways of supporting people too,

[00:40:37] Tanuki: [00:40:37] and it's true. They tend to reinforce different behaviors.

[00:40:42] Rebecca: [00:40:42] True.

[00:40:47] I'm trying to imagine useful application for vaginal squirting to teach somebody something valuable.

[00:40:56] Tanuki: [00:40:56] Well, how do you vaginal squirting is the obvious answer.

[00:41:02] Rebecca: [00:41:02] How to relax me completely. Yes.

[00:41:08] And also have to clean up the bed afterwards. Equally important.

[00:41:14] Tanuki: [00:41:14] Yes. Indeed.

[00:41:19] Rebecca: [00:41:19] I love that we can talk about stuff like this. [00:41:21] I

[00:41:22] Tanuki: [00:41:22] know, which is I totally respect your not sharing anecdotes about what shame people have. And. As you were describing that I realized that that's very different or very distant from my experience about the world too.

[00:41:39] I have these conversations with almost anyone I take the time to stop and talk.

[00:41:48] Yeah.

[00:41:49] Rebecca: [00:41:49] That's one of the upsides and potentially one of the downsides of being as open as we

[00:41:54] Tanuki: [00:41:54] are.

[00:41:55] Rebecca: [00:41:55] Yeah. I find that when I talk to people about either about what I do for a living, or just in general, sometimes it's just about polyamory or about sex. If I bring it up and I say something kind of off the wall, but not super outrageous, then they often find that they have more.

[00:42:15] Yeah, willingness to share that kind of stuff with me. And then [00:42:21] many times we end up going down this rabbit hole where we talk about all kinds of things that they would never talk about anybody else, but, and that they probably wouldn't have brought up with me except I brought it up first. And so it'd be, it becomes a very lovely thing.

[00:42:34] "Oh Muffin..." - the Divorcee and Doggy Style [00:42:34] Tanuki: [00:42:34] Absolutely. Yeah. I am. I am reminded of a series of emails. I got a few years ago from a woman. Uh, my work webs and she said, uh, do you ever see women? I was like, yes, yes. Please tell me a little bit about yourself. And she's like, well, I just I'm divorced. And I just started seeing this guy and I just really need help knowing how to keep sex from hurting so much.

[00:43:07] And I was like, Oh yes, I can definitely help you with that. Do you want to come see me and talk about it? Um, and so I just emailed her really [00:43:21] quickly, the basics about, are you having some foreplay? Are you using plenty of lube? And her response was, well, I just started seeing this guy and he's just getting divorced too.

[00:43:36] And so he was really excited and. Uh, the first time we had sex, he really, really wanted to do doggy style. And I was like, Oh,

[00:43:48] muffin  no. No. Yes.

[00:43:54] A class for people who have sex with Penis-Havers [00:43:54] And so I was reminded that I had wanted to at some point, teach a class for people who have sex with penis Havers. And how to keep your body safe while having sex with a penis ever, because at this point, you know, cause I'm a professional son can have sex with the brand new divorcee who wants to [00:44:21] start with doggy style and I would not get hurt because I know how to move my pelvis.

[00:44:25] And obviously I'm a small bodied human. If someone intended to hurt me, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the. We're all somewhat inexperienced and awkward kinds of hurting, and it's just a little pelvic tilt. And then your Botox take most of that impact and you can adjust how deep you want him to go.

[00:44:46] And he doesn't even realize for them the penis Havers. Sorry. See gender binary. Bullshit.

[00:44:56] Rebecca: [00:44:56] I can tell your brain is turned off. You're usually much smoother about this, but you are totally getting there.

[00:45:04] Tanuki: [00:45:04] I'm actually gratified that you can tell.

[00:45:09] Rebecca: [00:45:09] Good. I'm glad it's the compliment.

[00:45:12] Tanuki: [00:45:12] Yeah, no,

[00:45:16] Rebecca: [00:45:16] I know you were not shaming people who want to have doggy-style sex,

[00:45:21] [00:45:21] Tanuki: [00:45:21] not

[00:45:22] Rebecca: [00:45:22] explain what you mean by that.

[00:45:25] Tanuki: [00:45:25] Oh, so doggy-style sex is a fabulous position for getting really deep, which is sometimes exactly what you want. It can be really challenging to start there with a new partner, um, because you haven't really learned each other's rhythms and preferences and edges

[00:45:52] Rebecca: [00:45:52] yet.

[00:45:53] And you have no eye contact for the subtle communication, right? Yeah.

[00:46:02] Tanuki: [00:46:02] So it can be exactly the thing you want for a variety of reasons and is one of my favorite positions, but yeah, with a brand new partner when you're inexperienced and they're inexperienced and [00:46:21] eager. It can be quite challenging to do it without it hurting, because these are very delicate parts that are,

[00:46:31] Rebecca: [00:46:31] if they haven't been used in awhile,

[00:46:33] Tanuki: [00:46:33] especially if they haven't been used in a while.

[00:46:35] Yeah.

[00:46:36] Rebecca: [00:46:36] Especially if they're not fully in gorged with excitement and arousal, if you jump in too quickly.

[00:46:44] Tanuki: [00:46:44] Yep.

[00:46:45] Rebecca: [00:46:45] Yeah. It's going to hurt

[00:46:47] Tanuki: [00:46:47] and depending whether or not. You like the deep parts of your receiving body hit hard because some people do like that. And that's totally legitimate too. But if you don't like that, it can register as unpleasant pain.

[00:47:09] So, yeah, there's a lot to know there.

[00:47:14] Rebecca: [00:47:14] To me. The key really is how aroused is my body. Cause if my body is very [00:47:21] aroused, then my vagina takes on a completely different shape and like completely different kinds of thrusting.

[00:47:29] Tanuki: [00:47:29] I have even noticed with mine, it changes with my cycle because my cervix and everything changes shape depending on your cycle as well.

[00:47:41] So yes. Predictably. It would be in the middle of my cycle where my body is like pound all the things

[00:47:53] Rebecca: [00:47:53] of course.

[00:47:55] Tanuki: [00:47:55] And doggy style is very efficient for pounding all the things harder.

[00:47:59] Rebecca: [00:47:59] Yes it is.

[00:48:04] I love that you can talk about efficiency and sex in the same sentence and make it sound sultry. Well, Yeah, soul sister

[00:48:19] Tanuki: [00:48:19] getting what one wants and [00:48:21] knowing how to do that effectively. Yeah. That's sexy.

[00:48:27] Rebecca: [00:48:27] You can

[00:48:27] Tanuki: [00:48:27] think of a few things that are sexier, which of course, depending on the scene, when is enjoying.

[00:48:34] Might be exactly what you get upon asking for. It might be exactly what you get denied upon asking for it.

[00:48:43] Our Next Conversation... [00:48:43] Rebecca: [00:48:43] Yes. Wow. You know, I think our next podcast conversation might have to be talking about some of these really good specifics about sex, because just having the conversation with you, even though none of this is new to me, it's all like, Oh great.

[00:49:01] And now I can adjust something that I'm thinking of right now, what I'm learning from my friends. Nuki again, what I'm relearning again,

[00:49:11] Tanuki: [00:49:11] which I think is part of why. Our jobs. My job has held my attention as long as it has is its [00:49:21] great complexity and depth. I've had a number of careers over the years and once I figured them out, I tend to be ready to move on.

[00:49:33] This has held my attention for a very long

[00:49:36] Rebecca: [00:49:36] time. There's always more to discover.

[00:49:39] Tanuki: [00:49:39] Yeah.

[00:49:42] Rebecca: [00:49:42] There is always more to discover with you. I do want to have another conversation with you at some point, and I want to respect your time. I know I said I would let you go, so I'm going to let you go,

[00:49:52]Happy International Whore's Day! [00:49:52]

[00:49:52] but before I do, do you know what today is?

[00:49:55] Tanuki: [00:49:55] I do, but I want to have you say it

[00:49:59] Rebecca: [00:49:59] it's international Whore day, right?

[00:50:06] Tanuki: [00:50:06] Wow. That's really fascinating. My brain flags, that word pretty hard because people use it who are not sex workers, and I will often gently educate them. And so it's fun to hear you [00:50:21] say it and have it not get flagged that way and just be able to enjoy the proper use of a vocabulary word.

[00:50:27] Rebecca: [00:50:27] Yay. Yeah, I know the same thing.

[00:50:33] It's a weird thing to hear that word set out loud and between the two of us, it feels. Totally comfortable. So shall we wish each other happy international holiday?

[00:50:45] Tanuki: [00:50:45] Yes. Happy international holiday to you. And I wanted to add to the end of the last conversation we were having, since we're going to have another conversation, when we have the conversation about specifics of sex.

[00:51:05] If any of your listeners have questions that they might want to send in and include because, you know, we might just go play in the weeds of what we think is interesting, but I know we both find [00:51:21] absolutely fascinating, whatever they find interesting too. So we can have a sex adventure with our thoughts and theirs.

[00:51:29] Rebecca: [00:51:29] You know, I think that's a great idea. I think I will set up a place on the website where people can email in their questions and I can even have them do it anonymously. How cool is that?

[00:51:38] Tanuki: [00:51:38] It's perfection.

[00:51:42] Rebecca: [00:51:42] Perfect. Well, thank you for spending some of international hor day with me Tanuki.

[00:51:46] It's a pleasure as always.

[00:51:48] Thank

[00:51:49] Tanuki: [00:51:49] you.

[00:51:49] You for the invitation to come and hang out with you on international whore Day.

[00:51:54] It has helped my, my shut-in sanity. Good.

[00:51:57] Rebecca: [00:51:57] Well, if you ever need some more help with your shut insanity, I am a phone call away and I will talk about anything, especially sex, but anything with you. Awesome. Grounded. And you can knit at the same time.

[00:52:09] Tanuki: [00:52:09] Oh, that's true. The things you say, my

[00:52:12] Rebecca: [00:52:12] goodness, quite lovely to be around people that grok each other like that.

[00:52:18] So

[00:52:19] Tanuki: [00:52:19] indeed, [00:52:21] indeed. We'll have a wonderful horse day.

[00:52:23] Rebecca: [00:52:23] Thank you have a wonderful time in their yard.

[00:52:26] Tanuki: [00:52:26] Thank you. Bye

[00:52:27] Rebecca: [00:52:27] bye.

[00:52:40] Hey pleasure seeker. Well, that's it for today's conversation here at Pleasure Central Radio. We love using conscious communication. Science geekery and copious amounts of true pleasure to improve our partnerships, our money and our love lives. And we hope you do too. If you loved what you heard here, we'd love a review.

[00:53:03] You can listen to other episodes of the podcast and read thought provoking essays or poems written by me, radiant Rebecca, by checking out the blog on pleasure central podcast.com. Sign up to hear about new episodes and immediately  at pleasurecentralpodcasts.com. [00:53:21] Your thought to ponder today is:

[00:53:26]So especially when it comes to sexual shame, if someone close to me is feeling shame about something that they've done and they haven't harmed anybody, that's the kind of thing where I think I would question their shame. And help them see the light of it. Yeah. And I hope somebody would do that for me

[00:53:51] too.